And Michael Gelles warns in this report that he fears this is what was happening with the SERE techniques that were being used in Guantanamo. People were losing their basic common sense about where to draw the line.
And the program was developed in large part by behavioral scientists who were working with the military, who do everything they possibly can to measure a soldier's stress levels to see how they're doing physically and emotionally, as they go through this program.
And to me, it was interesting, some of the people I had interviewed who knew the insides to this program said that they also, to create anxiety and upset in the soldiers, they take Bibles and they trash them.
And, in fact, there is a connection, the people who designed this here program and who implement it are the same people who are overseeing and helping in the interrogations of detainees in places like Guantanamo.
I mean, the people who run Guantanamo, the military, pretty much dismiss complaints by the detainees because they say that they're all created as part of a political process to sort of fake complaints and get public support.
It was our view of the worst that could befall our people if they were taken captive. So, what was fascinating to me was that somehow it appears the techniques that we have feared most in the world would be used on our people, we are using on people in our custody.
People will say whatever they think their captors want to hear. And so, instead of getting the truth from someone, you may be getting, you know, a complete lie; but it's an unreliable source of intelligence cause it's hard to tell what's true and what's not true under those circumstances.
So, I don't know how closely you want to rely on that causal link; but it is clear that if the U.S. is going to be abducting individuals around the world, and just spiriting them away to be tortured or whatever, you can't do these things secretly, really secretly anymore.